[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

hey you can call me arrogant and a prick and whatever, fine, that's what i am. can you admit to being a stubborn mule sometimes who won't concede a point just out of stubbornness?

yes, but in this particular instance there is good reason to remain stubborn, its a matter of principle. If you sell out your principles for the sake of polite conversation, nothing gets accomplished. Racism is an oblivious disease. Sometimes people need to be shouted out to come to the realization that they are infected. I'm very stubborn about these kinds of matters, yes even admittedly mule headed, but these are fundamental, core issue. I can't bitch out. The flag has got to be hoisted!

 

Originally Posted by dead_battery

ok - but is racism a problem for whites?

i mean - not really. not for a few decades yet. or maybe now in parts of south africa.

Yes, I am white, I have a problem with it, so do a lot of white folks in my family, friendship, and work-place. The thing about structural racism is it was imposed by a minority of elitist whites, and that means that as with Abolition or with the Civil Rights era, white folks are going to have to get off their ass and get involved daily.

eliminating racism - ok - but in practice this often turns out to be white people taking the blame for everything bad that happens to black people,

That is a typical knee-jerk reaction to defensive whites about uppity minorities trying to rock the boat. The boat needs to be rocked. Yes, inherently white folks will lose some of their privilege, but simply put, a lot of white folks don't necessarily want it anyways. Ending racism is not a "white people suck" pity party, its about assessing the racial situation. If there is a gap in economy, then it must be addressed. If there is a gap in government representation, that must be addressed. If there is a gap in neighborhoods and communities and places of worship, that must be addressed. If there is a gap in educational quality and attainment, that must be addressed. Its not a finger-pointed game, its about tackling real life problems with pragmatic solutions. This means hiring black and brown people, period. This means ending redlining in housing and community redevelopment, period. This means ending gerrymandering political borders to benefit racial divisions (like the way "Repubicans" here in California have recently rezoned and redistricted their boundaries to included predominantly white areas even when these make ZERO sense geographically).. THESE are the solutions, just bitching and moaning neither sitting on your hands and pretending the problem has already been solved are not.

does it have distinctive goals that it wants to achieve that would accomplish its mission?

Yes, relative economic, political, educational, and cultural equality. If there is any instances of racial inequality in these fields, then there is still a fight left to win.

if not then its interminable and i think that that is beneficial to white people who have a kind of secular fantasy of themselves as the redeemers of the minorities through their tolerance and liberal democratic inclusion.

I agree, these folks live in a fantasy. However, there are still plenty of people every day, black, white, and brown, working together in the trenches, working in public education, working in community development, working in government, to make a positive difference.

im more pessimistic than you.

I do suffer from painful optimism this is true

however i could be totally wrong. i'd like to be wrong and for there to be some sort of TRUE post racial social order.

You're not totally wrong, just not entirely right either