This may very well get me ousted from the board
 

But I just can’t help myself.

Does it ever cross your mind that when you postulate on the meaning of an SY (or any band for that matter) album/song/lyric/relationship/quote/etc., if that band were reading those theories (which may very well be the case here), they’re shaking their heads and laughing?

I realize that part of the point of ‘art’ is its subjectivity, its proclivity to interpretation. I know that’s the very purpose behind some of it.

However

When we start threads like “Do you think ‘Little Trouble Girl’ is an ironic comment on modern gender roles” blah blah blah, I can’t help but think, my god, are we presumptuous fuckers, thinking we have the right to impose our theories on someone else’s creation.

I mean really, who the fuck am I to think I can for even a MOMENT guess what’s going on inside their heads when they’re recording an album? I know it irritates the hell out of me when other people presume to know what my behavioral motivations are.

I’m picturing Thurston reading our Sonic Gossip section – “Little do they know I wrote half that album on the shitter.”

While ‘art’ is a form of universal expression, conversely, it can also be highly personal to its creator. Naturally its patrons are going to espouse theories on its various aspects, but I wonder if a band thinks

We shit it out
You ingest it
Then digest it
Fucking like it
Or don’t

These are just random unformulated thoughts that will likely get me ostracized, but so be it.

Good post, I've thought about this quite a bit as well. We pretty much only know the original meanings to the songs when they tell it to us through an interview or whatnot, and the rest you have to assume a meaning to the song. I remember on the old board there was a thread about bashing on people trying to interpret SY song meanings on www.songmeanings.com, but personally I think that you can interpret it however you want, and that's one of the joy's of music. I'm with you for the most part. I know if I took part in a popular band or music project and people attempted to interpret the meanings to my songs, I would probably find some of them rediculous, and I probably will laugh, but I would also respect their assumptions

I hope not! :eek:

I can see your point, but I think the majority of lyrics are written around some kind of form or idea, and as such there will be some kind of meaning. This is especially apparant in a song like Youth Against Fascism, where the video also ties in ideas that are complememtary to the impression that the song gives.

Apart from that, I think it's nice to see how different interpretations can arise - interpretations of a song will be a reflection not only of the song's contents but will also be an intellectual consequence of factors such as one's upbringing, education, society, personal relationships, religion etc etc etc. If I were the artist, I'd enjoy seeing what different interpretations people had of my product. I think.

I think that lyrics, such as displayed in songs like Beauty Lies In The Eye or Chapel Hill for example, are evidently not the result of freeform creation - there's a subject that's being explored, and since we each have our own experience (or impression) of any given subject, we will each percieve things in a slightly different way.

Or do I stand for everything you are railing against? :confused:

i typically dont even try to find a meaning, i think its pointless.

Nihilist!

I find that meanings enhance the whole concept of having vocals and lyrics in the song. Tt can portray messages that the artist intends for you to connect with, which is a constructive way of communication. I think meanings are great.

I agree with you - there's got to be something in observing the impact your 'product' has on its audience. Especially in the area of sociological observation, as you pointed out. Nor do I think that every piece, or necessarily any piece, is the result of freeform thought.

I just think that, to a degree, it takes some real ballls to presume to know what the finer points of an artist's psyche are.

What brought this all to mind was a thread asking what boardies thought about SY's relationship to the Grateful Dead, because of "Rather Ripped" (not that I'm at all criticizing the thread topic, I'm sure the person is genuinely curious). And I just thought, essentially, we can espouse all the theories we want, but in the end, it doesn't really matter what the fuck we think anyway, because unless someone from SY steps up and says, "Look shitbrains, this is why we chose that title," what's the point in surmising? We'll never know, it's just fodder for another pseudo-intellectual discussion topic.

I can forget that sometimes, you can appreciate something on a purely visceral level, and to dissect it with fabricated knowledge can taint it. While I certainly don't ignore the substance within SY's music, or fail to give them credit for experimentation, often I listen to their music and think, "This is true rock."

I always try to find the meaning with no luck at all though

I agree with Ben-David. Sure, some songs have cool ideas behind them but I don't really care. I can understand knowing what "Hives Hives" or something where it is very obvious about and getting attached or drawn to the song because of that but I'm not a fan of analyzing songs and figuring stuff out. Especially music like Scissor Shock, Arab on Radar, or junk like that. I don't think there really is an intended meaning other than a bunch of random lyrics about sex and promiscuity.

easily detect a flat-footed traitor your mom is a co-conspirator her nonsense cannot prevent the prize fighter from fist fuckin your citizens quickly remove the punk drunken faggot and maintain a flat-footed status easily deter the citizen's maneuver your mom is a dictator her curfew cannot prevent the pigeon-toed daughter from getting fucked by a meat head quickly remove the punch drunken faggot and maintain a pigeon-toed

Definately has no meaning, but still extermely enjoyable to listen to.

Sure it does - if you want it to.

There was this interview of PK Dick, where he was saying how the interpretation of his book by the academia were BS. It's easy to over-analyse music or lyrics. still, not *every* interpretation is valid. to say that Kill yr Idols bring to mind the death of Hector off the Iliad would be just crap.
Perceiving, "absorbing", a work of art is a creative process. That doesn't mean that anything goes though.

On the other hand, if I may opine, I think that if one doesn't read into music, if one doesn't find representations, then how will it ever be more than mere entertainment? How will it ever mean something to the listener?

Yeah. I rarely bother to try and read into the lyrics too much. I mean it's all down to personal interpretation and what they mean to you individually. I think you can get more than just entertainment out of music without reading into the lyrics. At least reading into them in a pro-active way....I certainly don't do that....I'm finding it hard to put it into words exactly.

I rarely look for extra-musical meaning in SY. For me, I look for meaning in the music and not in "what it's about". This is part of the reason that I don't pay much attention to their lyrics.

Honestly, I don't think it matters much what SY meant by a song. What matters is what it means to you. In other words, what it means to SY isn't neccesarily the authoritative meaning.

This type of thing is discussed quite a lot in literary theory circles. I guess when you guys are dissecting the lyrics, you're doing literary criticism. I prefer to stay away from that and keep my opinions strictly about the music.

A book that would be enlightening, maybe (I haven't read it, but I mean to. I have friends that have read it, and like it):

Is There a Text in this Class? : The Authority of Interpretive Communities by Stanley Fish

Apparently, he talks in this book about exactly what Trunky is saying. The SY board is an "interpretive community"? I'm going to read this soon.

Yes....pretty much what Noumenal said is what I was trying to get at really.

I hope you are not implying that only vocal/lyrical music can have any "meaning."

True. It would be interesting to see what interpretations people would come up with for that song though

the lyrics and the way i interpret the music changes so much everytime i hear it. i dont, or try not to look for too much meaning in them. sometimes thats hard to do. its hard to put into words what i actualy mean which is a problem i have.

sometimes the music makes me feel a certain way and the words certainly go with it, other times i find them oppressive and they dont add to my pleasure of wht i am hearing.

its strange, i could talk about this subject a lot but i cant even begin to describe what i mean without coming accross as a total cock.

Ah, literary theory...

My college days also came to mind with this topic. I will make the blanket statement that English majors are INSUFFERABLE.

You'd sit through class after class, listening to some goatee-sporting jackass elucidate his enlightened theory about homoeroticism in Whitman's poetry. Thanks for sharing, but

1. Duh.
2. Just because the guy wrote "I Sing the Body Electric" doesn't mean he tries to cop a feel every time he goes to the harrier's.

My point being, the construct of ANY media is highly subject to interpretation, and you could literally endlessly dissect a song.

I agree, noumenal, that if any 'significance' is to be had from a song, it makes more sense for it to be personal, rather than a regurgitation of what it meant to the writer.

I think it's ironically amusing that so many literary figures recognized this tendency to extrapolate unnecessarily on their work, and began writing tongue-in-cheek bits just to watch their readers flail in an academic cesspool of bullshit.

Sometimes, things just are what they are.

As John Cage said, "I have nothing to say and I am saying it and that is poetry."

What's my underlying point? I'm not entirely sure. Maybe that John Donne is gazing down upon the millions of people salivating over his poetry, toking up a fattie, and thinking, "That poem's three lines long! Get a life, jackasses."

I'm not really looking for any "deep" meaning......I just know it gets me off.

sounds exhausting

No, in fact in my previous post I stressed the opposite:interpretations of a song will be a reflection not only of the song's contents but will also be an intellectual consequence of factors such as one's upbringing, education, society, personal relationships, religion etc etc etc.

That song is awesome though. AOR was made solely for me to dance to.

edit: when i opened this page when hip priests post was the last in the thread what i'm saying is mostly been said by other people already. feel free to skip.


because music can mean things without literally meaning things.
everyone here is discussing lyrics, does that mean that lyrics mean something but the actual music doesn't? nobody ever asks what the meaning of a particular bass line is or whatever, i find it irritating that people's whole interpretation of music hinges upon the lyrics, are the whole band thinking about the same thing as the lyricist when they play that song? i doubt it. and if lyrics are the be all and end all why bother with music at all, why not just read/write poetry. music isn't literal or logical, it's spiritual and emotional.
i agree pretty much whole heartedly with what truncated said (unless she's going to tell me i've missed the point) and find interpretations of anything presumptuous and hot airish.

although, having said that, when i was in my first year at art school i did a project where i lent my camera to friends from outside school and asked them to take photos for a day of whatever they wanted, and then asked people in my class to look at the photos and try to imagine and describe what the person who took that particular set of photos was like. anyway, most people couldn't have been more wrong with what they presumed about the person, but there 2 people in my class (out of about the 20 i asked) who every time i showed them a set of photos they described the person who took them very accurately. i had 10 different friends taking pictures for me, and each of them was described well, but only by these 2 same people. none of the people from school knew any of my friends who took the photos. it was very interesting.
so what i'm saying is is that i think a few people have an inate ability to decipher information from art, but that information isn't really always a particular message or meaning. and i think to assume that a piece art/music is created as a vehicle for a message is akin to misunderstanding that entire medium.

also, i think the whole business of disecting art is largely a skam cooked up by academics to keep themselves in jobs, because every budding academic i've ever spoken to has told me the reason they want to be an academic is so they don't have to get a real job in the real world. and that's probably true of critics too.

Just to clear one point up, in the post you quoted I used the word 'music' rather than 'lyrics' precisely because my point applied to the two things. I agree with what you're saying - I was taking to a saxophonist/songer I know who plays covers in bars and he was moaning that even with very well-known songs, the audience don't recognise the tune; they only recognise the track at all when the vocals start. I guess that's a very casual music fan, but it sort of ties in with your point.


Thanks. You should copy n paste this onto the FOrtean Times forum - they have about a million sections and sub-sections, you'll get feedback there, I'm sure.

They don't care if its exhausting because they are nihilists

nhilist is a funny word..
btw.. i like pondering song meanings and find it amusing.. its part of the art.


this is one of those threads where i SHOULD write a fucking paragraph of bullshit to back up what i said, fuck that.

Well said.

The issue is definitely not limited merely to lyrics. It applies to any interpretation people feel at liberty to make regarding any facet of any piece of any art.

Nor do I think that an "outsider's" perspective is by default flawed. There are definitely some people who are more perceptive than others, who have the ability to consider more of the pertinent factors when trying to derive an objective (insofar as it can be) impression of something.

continuation of previous post because I'm too lazy to quote multiple passages -


I concur with this absolutely (ha isn't that funny that was what my degree was based on). Not saying that I don't want a real job. But so many of these people seem to think that the point of dissecting literature/music/etc. is to arrive at some profound meaning that, of course, is unprecedented, because, well, they're geniuses and all that.

I think that whole pursuit is really an exercise to help hone analytical thinking - nurture an ability to deconstruct and deduce, reason and hypothesize. Abilities that have much farther reaching implications than reading Macbeth and being able to pinpoint guilt/treachery imagery.

I digress.

Again, my basic, irrelevant point is that someone from SY (actually even that's unlikely, they have better things to do) is probably reading this and going, "Christ, those silly twats must be bored."

ok, sorry, it's just that a lot of the time when people say music they're really only refering to the lyrics.


really? do you think this counts as fourtean terrirtory?

People's apparant ability to describe others from the photographs they take? Absolutely.

Isn't everything Fortean territory if you stretch it far enough?

If it's 'strange', yes. Go to the forum and look at the diversity.

I completely agree with this. Music has meaning but what it means is ineffable. As far as I know, SY always adds lyrics after writing the music, so as far as I'm concerned, the music is where it's at.

That is in part what I'm saying. The experience could be completely aural, visceral. The 'complexity' could lie entirely in the music. Or its simplicity. Or there could be no meaning whatsoever. It could just be an aurally pleasing combination.

It could be nothing; it could be anything.

Now this has all ceased to make sense. English words have lost all meaning. Definitions and concepts have fled my understanding. I am officially a retard brain.

I grew up hating literary criticism. I loved reading, but I couldn't stand the wankering that we would do in English class - making conjectures about symbolism and so on.

However, music theory is copletely different. When I do music theory, I don't try to figure out what music means, that would be pointless. I just try to figure out how it works and doing that makes me a better musician, but more importantly, it makes me enjoy the music more. Listening to music is one thing, but listening after having played it and analyzed it is completely different. The reason I love music theory is because of the power it has to help me understand and enjoy music more.

Some people think that doing this is like learning how a magic trick is performed - that it takes away something from the experience, but this is completely wrong. If you haven't had the epiphany of understanding how a particular piece of music does what it does, you're missing out. I agree that music is "emotional and spiritual", but it is also intellectual and it isn't magic.

This distrust of academia is disturbing. The academic study of the arts has fallen behind, I'll give you that. It needs to catch up, particularly in music. But it's difficult because people don't want to change. On both sides. Rock music could benefit from a different viewpoint as well. However, I think that the tactic that a lot of academics take towards pop music is stupid as hell. All they talk about are the lyrics and sociological aspects - and this is the kind of crap that T&B is talking about. I shit on that stuff. But it would be great for rock music if there was a more systemized attempt to understand it musically. Ultimately, it would make for better music. IMO, rock music has yet to produce anything that can come close to the greatest music in the classical tradition. And it never will if people keep viewing music as magic that ought not be dissected.

that's why i don't mess with those threads, i know what the songs mean to me even if i don't know the lyrics.

even when bands go on the record about certain songs and lyrics, if they don't come close to what i think the songs are, i get frustrated and disappointed.

that was a line from the big lebowski

i know they don't care